Naysayer Neyer not impressed with Angels

September 12th, 2008, 7:12 am · 24 Comments · posted by BILL PLUNKETT, OCREGISTER.COM

I have been covering Major League Baseball with varying frequency in some capacity for almost 20 years now — and I have still never seen ESPN “expert” Rob Neyer in a clubhouse or press box. I’m not sure if he’s even a real person or just some “Max Headroom”-type creation. (Late ’80s reference, lost on younger audience.)

Can’t recall ever seeing him quote a player, coach, manager or GM — any source other than his own calculator — in any of his articles for ESPN.com, either.

It sure makes it easier to throw out opinions when you don’t have to justify them to the people you’re writing about or face the music by walking into a clubhouse the next day. Makes it easier. Not more valid, though.

For whatever reason, Neyer has never been very impressed with the Angels’ successes. He used to be a serial basher of Darin Erstad. Must have cost him a fantasy-league title once.

He’s at it again with this take on his blog after the Angels clinched the A.L. West.

****

EVEN WITH TEIXEIRA, ANGELS NOT THE BEST TEAM

The Angels have clinched, already. They also have the best record in the majors (by just a hair). So are they really the best team in the league? Mark Teixeira put them over the top?

When Teixeira joined the Angels, they were 66-40 (.623) with the third-best run differential (+43) in the American League.

Today? They’re 88-57 (.607) with the sixth-best run differential (+62) in the American League.

This is impossible, right? After all, the Angels perfectly addressed a glaring need by trading for Teixeira, who’s been fantastic since then, hitting .362/.444/.610 in 38 games. But what’s so easy to forget is that Teixeira is just one player. Just one of 25 (or one of 20 if you want to ignore the guys who don’t play important roles).

When a team adds a player like Teixeira, the general assumption is that the team has to play better, because he’ll play better than whoever he’s replaced and everyone else will play exactly as they’ve been playing. But of course the real world doesn’t work that way. Some guys will play about the same, some will play better, some will play worse. In this particular case, it’s pretty clear that the guys playing worse have outnumbered the guys playing better. Or perhaps that the guys playing worse have been worse than the guys playing better have been better.

Anyway, you get the drift. Adding Teixeira was obviously a positive change, but one positive change doesn’t guarantee anything at all. The Angels have won the West with him, and they would have won the West without him. They wouldn’t be as well set up for the postseason without him, though. So for that reason alone he was worth getting.

The Angels are pretty good. In the playoffs, they’ll be just as good as anybody else except the Red Sox. But even with Teixeira in the lineup for the last seven weeks, the Angels are 10th in the league in slugging percentage and 11th in on-base percentage. Even with Teixeira in the lineup, they’ve got one great hitter (him) and one very good one (Vladimir Guerrero).

The Angels may well finish with the best record in the league. It won’t mean they’re the best team.

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sc says:

September 12, 2008 at 7:30 am

Yeah this clown has a long history of down playing accomplishments by anyone other than his beloved Red Sox. Look at it this way, Neyer is to the Red Sox what Keith Olbermann and MSNBC are to Barack Obama.

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Sam says:

September 12, 2008 at 8:09 am

Oh, Bill.

You make the point very well for why so many people read Rob Neyer instead of you.

“It sure makes it easier to throw out opinions when you don’t have to justify them to the people you’re writing about or face the music by walking into a clubhouse the next day.”

Are you honestly admitting, in print, right here, that you can’t be honest as a reporter because you have to face these guys the next day? I’ve suspected it for a long time, but to see you state it so bluntly is amazingly honest. Now we know: Go to the beat reporter for nuggets of gossip, or to hear athletes repeat the same cliches over and over again, but don’t go to him to hear hard truths, because that guy has to “face the music” the next day.

Bill, you’re not their friend. You’re not their buddy. They don’t respect you. They tolerate you, use you, spin you, bully you, placate you, do everything they can to own you. Your job is to be above that, to be honest and hold them accountable. It is not to pretend the Angels are A+ Super Awesome (despite evidence to the contrary) just because you share some oxygen with them. If this is impossible, then it might be worth trying the Neyer method, rather than making ad homonym attacks on it.

And, for the record, Darin Erstad was awwwwwwful. Neyer was a serial basher of Erstad because Erstad was a serial basher of promising rallies.

Pam Stewart says:

September 12, 2008 at 9:13 am

I had to agree with a lot of what the ESPN writer said. “The Angels have won the West with him, and they would have won the West without him.” But deciding what team is “best” is totally subjective. The way people ultimately decide that is by which team wins its division, league and finally, the World Series. But that only really shows who was best on that series of seven days. Oh, and by the way Sam, obviously you’ve never been between that rock and a hard place of covering a local sports team. Easy to criticize Bill Plunkett when you don’t even sign your full name to your comment, huh?

Joseph says:

September 12, 2008 at 9:14 am

Correction:
Then they talk about how ((both)) of them are better than Kobe even though Kobe is considered the best on the planet

George says:

September 12, 2008 at 10:44 am

Great line!!! Neyer is to the Red Sox what Keith Olbermann and MSNBC are to Barack Obama.
He’s probably another wanna be who always wanted to play in the bigs but couldn’t hit a ball against the Green monster from the Second base!
I ignore this nut jobs!

Robert Guzman says:

i am a true fan long live spieziooooooooo and who can forget donnie. tex needs to step up in the playoffs dont be a alex rodriguez or a barry bonds all show until the big show then where they @. until we beat the red soxs in the playoffs this guy will always run his mouth. I think casey deserves to be celebrating with the team. better win tex because if not I’ll run my mouth and say dont mess up team chemistry.

BILL PLUNKETT, OCREGISTER.COM says:

September 12, 2008 at 11:51 am

You got me, Sam. You must have spotted me on the clubhouse floor, swimming next to Torii Hunter the other day. I just want these guys to like me. Gee, maybe they’ll invite me to join their fantasy football league. (Fingers crossed)
What I’m talking about is accountability. It’s easy to throw out opinions you know are going to go unchallenged. (SC might not have been as witty if Keith Olbermann was reading over his shoulder.) When you know you’re going to have to “face the music,” you’re more inclined/motivated to make sure you’ve got your facts straight, maybe look at things from more than one angle.
Fair and balanced, right? Oooo — bad example.
I know it’s not a popular school of thought these days but I still think there is value in actually gathering information before blurting out an opinion. No thought seems to go untyped in the world of internet immediacy.
Who are the real “experts” when it comes to Major League Baseball? The players who play it. The coaches and managers. Observing and interviewing them leads to a more informed opinion. Sorry – you can’t learn everything from watching on a flat-screen TV you got for a low, low price at Howard’s. (Product-placement shout-out for another one of my “good buddies.”)

September 12, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Bill, is anyone reading over Olbermanns shoulder? If not maybe they should.

Michael says:

Once again Brandy, you are wrong. Your argument is wrong. They have accomplished winning the west but if you were a true baseball fan as you claim you are, then you know that Mike Scioscia preaches one game at a time. Therefore, you know the Angels realize that even though this is an accomplishment, there is plenty of work to be done. You can’t sit there and say that haven’t accomplished anything. All of us “true Angels” fans were trying to tell Bill is to write about the celebration and not comment on some negativity to it. What’s next, blame the Angels for using a monkey for a rally and calling PETA to order them to remove it? Come on, give me a break. Do you work for the Register?

Allen Richard says:

September 12, 2008 at 3:55 pm

Of course the Angels’ run differential went down after they acquired Texiera. They are playing with 2 rookies in the infield, one filling in for one of their best hitters with risp. The Red Sox could win the championship, but it won’t be because they have the “best” team, it will be because they got hot at the right time.
Classic Neyer Logic you could hear soon :
If the Angels were the best team, they would have more wins against the East than the Red Sox.

Back in reality, the Angels are 30 - 16 against the east, Red Sox 31-28.
Neyer will soon realize that without Manny Ramirez, the Red Sox are much weaker, especially since Jason Bay cannot hit a curveball. Then again, he is probably on suicide watch now that Tom Brady is done for the year.

Matt says:

September 12, 2008 at 5:09 pm

So what was Neyer’s excuse for the Angels going 8-1 against the Red Sox this year??

What a tool…

Excuse me for using logic, but doesn’t the best record signify the best team? Don’t get me wrong, Vorp-ies and stat heads will tell you that because the Angels’ run differential and Pythag record aren’t good, that they must be a bad team, but when you are playing better than anybody else, I think that makes you the best team.

Must be hard to ignore the facts…

September 13, 2008 at 1:00 am

Junior? Wow…what are you like my grandmother? You wanna put your money where your mouth is. Given the weakness of the AL East and Central, the Angels are the clear favorites to win the AL crown and then sweep the AAA…I mean National League in the Series. Seriously Brandy, just stop posting. Go post on women’s softball or the WNBA or something.

dnoodle says:

September 13, 2008 at 7:56 am

I have been watching ESPN for years and the one baseball “expert” who I cannot stand is Neyer.
He rarely or never has anything good to say about the angels…he talks about allot of numbers and stats no one else talks about…
He is just a complete moron,

Jeannie says:

September 13, 2008 at 8:22 am

Look, let’s enjoy the lovely fact that our team made it to the playoffs and send them our best wishes for their next season plateau, which is getting the best record in baseball and home field advantage. Actually, with this team, I don’t think it matters much to them if they play at home (47-29) or on the road (43-28), since their road/home record is pretty similar. Personally, I would looove to see them win 100 games.

Bill, I understand the inherent pressure that facing the guys you talk about places upon the journalists especially the beat writers, particularly that understood aspect that says the athletes will stop talking to you if they want to do so. Your profession walks that line of not gushing, because then you’ll lose your credibility, but telling the story or angle and backing it up with facts. Being an anonymous “voice” like a blogger or a “journalist” who doesn’t have to face his subject does build a sense of “ivory tower” feeling of invulnerability.
They can say whatever they want with little personal consequence.
By the way, I hate when the ESPN guys call our games, though the HD picture is wonderful, because they don’t know our team and hearing mispronounced names or misquoted “facts” is painful!

Carlos says:

September 13, 2008 at 12:10 pm

But did you really take him to task, Bill? All you point out is that he doesn’t hang around a clubhouse or pressbox. What “facts” is he leaving out? Very rarely has the team with the best record at the end of the season been “the best” team; they simply had the best season. Yes, Neyer tends to look at the negative side of things in the game, which is his job. Angel fans love to point out how he “hates” the Angels. The truth is he points out the inefficiencies and shortcomings of every club. He is not a Sox lover (for the record hes a Royals fan). Like it or not, the Red Sox have been the best team over the last 4 years. I agree that they’re a bit weaker this year, but I can’t sit here and honestly say the Angels are a superior team. They’ve been allowed to feast on the AL West all year long and have won alot of close games. They’re a great team, they have a great shot at winning it all, but can we objectively say that they are absolutely better than every other team? I can’t.

Tyler says:

September 13, 2008 at 12:29 pm

Please don’t fall for the posters like Brandy. They get their jollies trying to stir the pot and rile up clear thinking fans with their ridiculous rhetoric.

The facts are the Angels are 90 - 57 on september 13 and have already wrapped up their division. Granted, the AL West is far from the best in the league but the Angels have proven they can win tough games at home and ON THE ROAD against the best division in baseball (the AL East). It is just stupid and ignorant to say the Angels have no chance in the playoffs. Who does? The depleted Red Sox? The inexperienced Rays? In my estimation the Angel’s have just as much of a chance if not more of one in the crap shoot known as the MLB Playoffs. The Angel’s are the most balanced, best rested team in baseball and come playoff time that’s all any fan can ask for.

As for stat geeks like Rob Neyer, thank god “pythagorean scores” and “run differential” aren’t criteria for making the playoffs. If that was the case the ‘06 Cardinals and ‘07 Diamondbacks wouldn’t have been left anywhere near the playoffs. If those stats really meant anything, the Oakland A’s would be nipping at our heels at this point in the season.

September 13, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Hey Brandy -
Angels’ record v. the East 30-16
Red Sox record v. the East 31-28

their v. there … we’ll save that for another day.

Steve says:

September 15, 2008 at 10:12 am

You people know nothing about Neyer, and probably less about baseball. He doesn’t root for the Red Sox. Poor him, he roots for the Kansas City Royals, and wrote a blog about them for years. Did he always bash Erstadt? No, only when he proved injury-prone and the Angels still signed him for an ungodly (at the time) amount of money. The Angels are a very good team, Neyer has said so all year long, and he acknowledges that getting Texeira for the playoffs was a good move, even if it means nothing one way or another for the regular season. Personally, I find Neyer one of the more interesting columnists/bloggers in baseball, because he has introduced me to stats that I never considered, such as VORP, win shares, range factor, OPS+, and others. To bash him because he doesn’t hang out in locker rooms is unfair and doesn’t help his detractors among those of us that like new ideas.

Daniel says:

September 15, 2008 at 10:56 am

Just so you know, I came over here because Rob Neyer, Mr. Unaccountable, just linked over here. I know I’m late to the party, but I’m going to add my thoughts anyway.

I love the Angels. I have my whole life (which has been since 1982). So I’m hardly impartial when it comes to judging their merits. Even so, I generally agree with what Neyer says about their overall quality.

As for Neyer’s specific comments about the Angels, I think he’s mostly right, but I don’t think he took into account the injuries the Angels have suffered which have caused them to be less productive than you’d expect. Neyer also says the Angels are very good, but they have a relatively weak offense. Anyone who has actually watched the games or interviewed actual players, including Mr. Plunkett himself, would agree with that assertion. So why is this a big deal?

As for accountability, he is held to high standards by both his readership and other media, both of which comment on his writing. He routinely writes about his failed predictions, hypotheses, etc. He is one of the most honest and forthcoming writers I have ever read. He was also, unfairly in my opinion, kept out of the BBWAA, and I’m not sure there’s any criticism that can hurt more than that. The BBWAA is less of an organization without him.

Chris says:

September 15, 2008 at 10:58 am

Y’all must have never read a Neyer blog or column before, as he’s clearly a Royals fan. Just because he doesn’t seem to think your precious Halos are the best team in the AL doesn’t mean he thinks they’re a bad team, anyway. They’re obviously one of the best teams in either league, run differential or not. The fact that they’ve given Frankie Rodriguez so many save opportunities does show that they play a lot of close games, though. Will they be able to win those games in October? We’ll see. Should be fun.

wally says:

September 15, 2008 at 11:38 am

“You must have spotted me on the clubhouse floor, swimming next to Torii Hunter the other day. I just want these guys to like me. Gee, maybe they’ll invite me to join their fantasy football league. (Fingers crossed)”

You want us to think you’re a better writer, a more honest writer, and more accountable then Neyer (or anyone that can stick to the facts) when you say stupid shit like this?

“What I’m talking about is accountability.”

No you actually are not talking about accountability, you’re talking about elitism. You are saying you’re a better writer just because you talk to players and managers in clubhouses or press boxes. But what does this fact actually change? Accountability? No, Rob is also accountable. If he starts misquoting or screwing up too man facts, its going to be noticed by readers and editors and he may lose his job or his LARGE fan base or both. You might pay for it slightly differently, ie. not being able to talk to someone who you’ve miss quoted to many times, but this does not mean you are the only one who is accountable. You write articles that represent how players and managers “felt” after/during a game, so that is the kind of accountability you are concerned with. Rob writes articles from a statistical stand point, so they way in which he is held accountable is going to be different.

“I know it’s not a popular school of thought these days but I still think there is value in actually gathering information before blurting out an opinion. No thought seems to go untyped in the world of internet immediacy.”

Again, this is nonsense. That just exposes you for the hack that you are. Do you have any idea what logical fallacy is?

“Who are the real “experts” when it comes to Major League Baseball? The players who play it. The coaches and managers. Observing and interviewing them leads to a more informed opinion.”

First, Rob observes plenty of games (so does anyone that actually cares about baseball), again a truly stupid point. Second, why does interviewing them lead to a more informed opinion? Why are players, coaches and managers the only “experts.” How does talking with a player that got a key hit in a game actually allow you to be more informed? Because he tells you it was a fastball? I can see that on TV, or on PitchF/X for that matter. Because they say 1000x that they “are happy they came through for the team?” Or the same BS they spew every game? Please. Just “talking with them” doesn’t mean you actually gained anything of consequence.

September 15, 2008 at 11:51 am

And talk about being “accountable,” the comments to your post need to go through “moderation.”

September 15, 2008 at 1:22 pm

“Yeah this clown has a long history of down playing accomplishments by anyone other than his beloved Red Sox.”

You know that Neyer is a Royal’s fan, right?

Andrew says:

September 15, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Sam couldn’t have said it any better (especially about Erstad…great *guy*, lousy hitter).

Orange County Register

Naysayer Neyer not impressed with Angels

September 12th, 2008, 7:12 am · 24 Comments · posted by BILL PLUNKETT, OCREGISTER.COM

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