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The 500-save club doubles its membership
June 29th, 2009, 7:31 am · 12 Comments · posted by Earl Bloom, staff writer
Will Mariano Rivera, 500 saves and still going strong, catch Trevor Hoffman, 571 saves and still going strong?
Maybe a better question might be, does it matter? 
The thought here is, we should just enjoy them both, and savor the ride.
Rivera, who got No. 500 on a national TV stage Sunday night against the Mets, is two years younger at 39. He is 18 for 19 in save situations this season; Hoffman is 17 for 18 in his first season pitching for the Milwaukee Brewers.
Surprisingly, in a New York Daily News poll asking who is the best closer of the modern era, Hoffman led with 52 percent to Rivera’s 45 percent — as of 7 a.m. PT Monday.
Even if you are one of those who discounts the save as a bad statistic, consider this: The Brewers are 21-2 in games Hoffman has pitched this season; the Yankees are 25-5 when Rivera is summoned. Since the point of the exercise is to win, those fine numbers mean something to me.
In a trivial quirk, Hoffman also has an edge in career RBIs, 5-1, even after Rivera celebrated the first of his career after drawing a bases-loaded walk from Francisco Rodriguez (who has 228 saves at age 27, and still going strong — but that’s another post). Hoffman, a former infielder, has 35 career plate appearances to Rivera’s three.
Rivera has 34 postseason saves to Hoffman’s 4. Both have already pitched their way into the Hall of Fame, it’s just a matter of when they will be eligible for voting.
Thanks to colleague Nick Leyva on the sports desk for suggesting this post.
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I am no Yankees fan. But Rivera is far superior to Hells Bells. I mean, Rivera had a lot of those two-inning saves back in the day. He’s clearly the man.
Hey, I’ve known Trevor since he was an infant, I went to school with his oldest brother Greg, and had the pleasure of coaching brother Glenn a little in HS.
I am always gonna favor the Orange County guy, but yeah, Mariano is a Yankee I actually like … like Mickey Mantle, Roy White and Bernie Williams, to name three.
I absolutely loved that Rivera AB against K-Rod.
I’m with you, there are not many Yankees that I like. Don Mattingly is one of mine. But Rivera was just dominant. Although, I do have a bias against him for allowing the Red Sox to rally from an 0-3 series deficit. That was one of the most inexcusable things in the history of sports. Maybe our country.
Not to stir the pot, but since you brought it up… of course the records of those teams are going to be lopsided when those guys pitch. They only pitch late in the game with the lead. Odds are pretty good the team is going to win when they’re in there. Not to take anything away from either of them, considering the years their having at their advanced age. But what happens in the 8 innings before they come in has a lot to do with those won-loss records you cited.
Posting the W-L records in games pitched by closers is my snide commentary on those who devalue saves as a statistic.
OK, don’t give them saves. But as someone who appreciates how hard it is sometimes to get that last out, I want to give them some credit for nailing down a victory. Thus, presenting the records. Of course much happens in the first eight innings, too. Rollie Fingers used to come in in the sixth and close games, but then we had four-man rotations and no pitch counts, either.
Seriously, we can dump saves, and holds, as stats tomorrow and I won’t care. But teams, pitchers and managers get decisions in games, that is something too traditional to change in my opinion. We can debate the merits of the latter two until the end of time.
I agree with using those stats as accounting tools. As a whole, career saves and wins do say a lot about what kind of career a specific pitcher had. It just seems to me that citing a teams’ record in games in which their closer makes an appearance- a guy whose sole job is to nail down the last 3 outs of a potential win - is just screaming for context. Fittingly, for his 500th Rivera really did “save” the game by coming in during the 8th inning to put out a fire. I don’t have the numbers handy, but I’m curious what the Angels’ record is in games that Fuentes pitches, or the Mets in games where K-Rod throws. I’m pretty sure that unless a closer is having an unusually bad season (Brad Lidge) these W-L records should all be pretty lop-sided, assuming the managers all use their closers the same way.
I think what qualifies as a save should be changed. How can it be a save, if the tying run never comes to the plate??
Example: 3-run lead in the ninth, closer comes in, gets the first three batters out, gets credit for the save.
Change it, so that the only time its a save is if the tying run is at the plate. In this scenerio, with one swing the game would be tied. Obviously, this would consititute a save.
In essence, by facing three batters with a three-run lead, you get a save if you prevent all three from scoring.
This one-swing, tying run thing is anoher obsession with the home run, which some moderns think is the only way a run can be scored, without luck.
I didn’t write the saves rule. I don’t have strong feelings for it or against it, the way it is, but I don’t think it’s the most important issue of our times.
I think a better case can be made for reducing the games to seven innings, like high school. Think about it: Eliminating one, possibly two crummy relievers. And getting the fans on the freeways, or in the bars, that much sooner.
Or how about having left-handed hitters run to third base, and then run the bases clockwise? Think of the possibilities. Would baserunner collisions be considered luck, or otherwise …
I’m with you on the whole “luck” phenomenon. Yes, I understand that its referring to randomness and fluctuation. But there are actual “lucky” events that take place on the field, such as surviving five innings and getting the win in a laugher, like Matt Palmer on Sunday, or Torii Hunter robbing a home run (good luck for the pitcher, bad luck for the hitter). A mediocre pitcher having a good month isn’t luck; usually the guy is just throwing the ball well. I know I’m splitting hairs, but I wish these guys would be more creative in their analysis. I guess its what they say when they don’t know the real answer.
Carlos, I consider Torii Hunter robbing a home run as skill, not luck.
I have been told, since childhood, that line drives caught and jam shots that bloop in even out — although that never seems to be the case for the team you’re playing for, managing, coaching or rooting for (I don’t gamble, so feel free to add betting on).
C’mon, Earl, don’t misquote me. I said it was bad luck for the hitter/good luck for the pitcher. Robbing it is a phenomenal skill.
I still don’t see where luck is involved … maybe if Adam Dunn robs a home run, yes.